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Talk:Richard Grayson (Earth-Two)
sorry...but what publication states that Robin assumed Batman's identity except years later in Wonder Woman #283?) Hello Netkinetic In (Wonder Woman vol.1 #283) Robin states that he would RETURN to being Batman 2, not merely assume the role for the first time despite Helena's reluctance to having a successor in the role. In (The Brave and the Bold 182) Earth 2 Robin states that he tried to live up to being a new Batman and did not do a good job and stated the same to the Earth 1 Batman, feeling that no one could really live up to the Earth 2 Batman and that standards that the Earth 2 Bruce Wayne made for the role indicating why Earth 2 Grayson did NOT stay in the role. For how long Earth 2 Grayson was Batman 2 BEFORE his last documented case against the Earth 2 Joker we do NOT know as there was no formal handing over of the Batman role to Grayson specifically that is attributed to the Earth 2 stories in the same way that the Earth 2 Catwoman WAS SPECIFICALLY NEVER to have committed murder despite ALL of the printed stories that CLEARLY showed that Catwoman killed people during the 1950s and 1960s. Aain we assume that Wayne did NOT remain in the Batman role after his daughter was born for fear of putting her in the same situation that ultimately caused Earth 2 Wayne to become the Batman. So when Wayne retired we assumed that Grayson took over the role as unlike the modern history there is trusted second in the old Earth 2 stories such as a Jean Paul Valley to succeed Wayne in the role. : I just reviewed WW 1.283 and didn't see Robin make any such statement. Could you specify where in that issue he stated this? If this is accurate then I think you've made a logical deduction, but I can't seem to find the reference myself. General Grant 15:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC) Earth-Two versus Golden Age "'' in the same way that the Earth 2 Catwoman WAS SPECIFICALLY NEVER to have committed murder despite ALL of the printed stories that CLEARLY showed that Catwoman killed people during the 1950s and 1960s.'' " : You know, this is yet another piece of evidence for why there should be a disambiguation for the "Earth-Two" versus "Golden Age" versions of some of these characters, especially Batman, who once had machine guns mounted on his Batplane and unflinchingly used them mow down Hugo Strange's monster-men. Stoop Davy Dave (talk) 11:16, February 29, 2016 (UTC) :: I don't think so. ::# First of all, creating Golden Age pages for characters would absolutely destroy the In-Universe perspective that we have struggled to mantain for so long. And it could easily get out of hand considering silver and modern ages. Why would we want to do that? We shouldn't draw lines between comic eras and different universes based on our views, because DC has already established those lines, even though their continuity is not always accurate. We shouldn't try to assume and/or deduce the untold history of characters just to make sense of what DC didn't explain. We're here to index all the information available and present it in a coherent way according to what DC has published; and they certainly never mentioned comic ages in their stories. ::# The Batman with machine guns point is not enough to warrant a golden age page. Yes, Batman was ruthless and often brutal with criminals, but that only lasted one year until Robin was introduced. From an In-Universe perspective, Batman started out as a violent vigilante, but he changed his ways when Robin became his partner. One year, with less than 15 comic appearances; again is not enough to warrant a page for "golden age Batman" when all that info can easily fit in the Earth-Two article. ::# And finally, we all know by now that Golden and Silver Ages in comics are not exactly known for their extremely accurate continuity and how much sense the stories made. All we can do is catalog all the information given and point out some of the loopholes that are normal in the history of comics. - S.S. (talk) 16:32, February 29, 2016 (UTC) ::I think the original quote there about Catwoman is 1) wrong and 2) irrelevant. :: ::1. Catwoman killed people during the 50s and 60s? I just reviewed the Catwoman stories in those decades as indexed here (staring with and going to ) and don't see any mention of her killing anyone. Of course, our indexes aren't complete and there are many missing synopses, but still... :: ::2. The Earth-2 Catwoman only goes thru 1952 (until the retcons to establish the differences between Earth-Two and Earth-One start in the 70s). All the other Catwoman appearances in the 50s and 60s are Earth-One and thus irrelevant to this person's argument, even if she did kill someone. Shadzane �� (talk) 18:32, February 29, 2016 (UTC) :::S.S.:"We shouldn't draw lines between comic eras" ::::Poor choice of nomenclature on my part. The point here isn't to distinguish "golden" from "silver" but "as originally presented" from "retroactively cleaned up" versions. :::S.S."We shouldn't try to assume and/or deduce the untold history of characters just to make sense of what DC didn't explain." ::::Nobody's doing that. This is the told history of the character, and it's in conflict with the LATER told history of the same character. :::S.S.:"Yes, Batman was ruthless and often brutal with criminals, but that only lasted one year until Robin was introduced." ::::Did it happen or not? In the original continuity, it happened; in the Earth-Two continuity it didn't. So there's no In-Universe perspective that covers them both. :::S.S."From an In-Universe perspective, Batman started out as a violent vigilante, but he changed his ways when Robin became his partner." ::::That describes the "as originally presented" version of continuity. But in the "Earth-Two" version, Batman killed nobody, and didn't change his ways. Different personal history = different character. :::S.S."One year, with less than 15 comic appearances; again is not enough to warrant a page for "golden age Batman" when all that info can easily fit in the Earth-Two article." ::::In the Earth-Two article, Batman has killed nobody, so "all that info" cannot fit into it at all. Stoop Davy Dave (talk) 04:22, March 1, 2016 (UTC) ::::: I see your point, but you forgot to quote my last point: "All we can do is catalog all the information given and point out some of the loopholes that are normal in the history of comics. We do this to include original continuity and retcons without disrupting the In-Universe perspective of the article. These kind of clarifications should be made on the Notes and/or Trivia sections of Earth-Two or Earth-One characters like Batman and Catwoman. DC may try to hide the obscure history of these characters, but we're here to index that info using their own rules. When they deliberately decided to push all golden age history into the Earth-Two universe, they didn't thought of the loopholes and they just "erased" them, but the stories are there. So we do the same, we catalog the info in they way they intend to present it (Earth-Two), and we also point out what they "forgot" to mention in that same article, outside of the main structure of the article; like an addendum of sorts. Besides, if we give character pages according the comic ages, we would be breaking DC's entire Multiverse by creating our own set of rules, and that's just shenanigans. - S.S. (talk) 05:03, March 1, 2016 (UTC)